Curse

Kendel · Jul 07, 2009, 12:23 PM // 12:23

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Originally Posted by Nereida Shoal

If you think everyone can hold the agro and scatter everytime when the spikes come... then you must be living in a different world.

Apparently you don't understand the difference between holding agro and standing next to allies when HM Eles and Dervs are around. If 4 people are trying to tank Awakened Dune Carvers and none of them have prot your team fails.

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Between the nerf and the rebuff, the farming continued.

Really?! There i was thinking the entire farming community held a minutes silence after SF got nerfed. Anymore retarded things you think you need to tell me?

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Then they'll farm with the Ele.

Yes... "Starting point" is such a difficult thing to understand. Usually meaning SOMETHING WILL FOLLOW.

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And farming will continue.

Not at first. Pretty sure the forums will be full of whining Permasins claiming that clearing UW in 15 minutes is perfectly legit. All the noobs that copy wiki builds and youtube videos. The farming community with intelligence is less than 1%, the rest are just sheep that use the builds without a clue.

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Who said that we didn't enjoy farming? I admit I'm not "hardcore" enough that I play a game I don't like for the sake of playing it. That's the part you're failing to absorb. Just because YOU might not enjoy it, does NOT imply that others don't. So you go do what you like, leave us to do what we like, rather than having the unmitigated gall to tell people they should stop playing because you don't approve of their playstyle. You're just not that important.

Bwahaha, thats what they all say. I enjoy farming... so why don't you go play the rest of the game? If you find entering the same area with the same build taking the same route killing the same enemies over and over again and you don't find actually playing the game fun also then there must be something wrong with you. Pretty sure you don't need to farm 24/7 to get enough cash to actually play this game or to get the titles.

GourangaPizza · Jul 07, 2009, 12:31 PM // 12:31

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Originally Posted by Nereida Shoal

If you think everyone can hold the agro and scatter everytime when the spikes come... then you must be living in a different world.

A master-baiter will gladly be the mob's whipping boy for the party so long he has PS on him.

Nereyda Shoaal · Jul 07, 2009, 01:21 PM // 13:21

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Originally Posted by Kendel

Apparently you don't understand the difference between holding agro and standing next to allies when HM Eles and Dervs are around. If 4 people are trying to tank Awakened Dune Carvers and none of them have prot your team fails.

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Originally Posted by GourangaPizza

A master-baiter will gladly be the mob's whipping boy for the party so long he has PS on him.

Pls...
You either don't play the game or play with flawless people

In perfect world tanks tank, rangers pull, casters sit at the back. But we don't live in perfect GW world, well... I don't. Maybe you do

VinnyRidira · Jul 07, 2009, 01:32 PM // 13:32

I don't agree about Pve players playing Pvp to gain perspective. I live with very lousy ping rates and certain aspects of the game are denied due to that. I would have liked to play an interrupting mesmer, but my reflexes are not that great and suffer badly with extra long ping times. I have played all the character types in the game. I suck at playing healing and protecting, so I played the monk as a smiter. I also found the assassin tends to make a better smiter, as the spell type skills for the assassin are worse than useless, mostly. These days I generally play a necromancer, monk or ritualist, with the recent ritualist's buff, spirit builds are now better than great. Necromancers are still one of the most powerful characters in the game, even after the soul reaping nerf.

Targren · Jul 07, 2009, 02:00 PM // 14:00

Wow. Reading comprehension FTL.

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Originally Posted by Kendel

Really?! There i was thinking the entire farming community held a minutes silence after SF got nerfed. Anymore retarded things you think you need to tell me?

Silence? Were you even here? There was invective, loud and vile, levelled at Anet, anti-farming whingers like yourself, and their families and ancestors. All the while the ranting was going on, Bars were being adjusted to make room for Intensity and EBSoH, zealous scythes of enchanting were being assembled, and things were still moving on.

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Not at first. Pretty sure the forums will be full of whining Permasins claiming that clearing UW in 15 minutes is perfectly legit. All the noobs that copy wiki builds and youtube videos. The farming community with intelligence is less than 1%, the rest are just sheep that use the builds without a clue.

And it will take those 1% a very short time to come up with something new that works, to pass on to those "wiki-copying noobs," and farming will continue. Might have a setback of a day or two, max. No big deal there.

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Bwahaha, thats what they all say. I enjoy farming... so why don't you go play the rest of the game? If you find entering the same area with the same build taking the same route killing the same enemies over and over again...

How is that different from "playing the rest of the game?" The same 58 missions, the same 121 explorables, the same 18 dungeons, the same 5 elite areas...

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and you don't find actually playing the game fun also then there must be something wrong with you.

Seriously, who the hell do you think you are? Listen carefully this time; I will use small words.

You... do... not.. get... to... tell... other... people... what... they... find... fun.

If you don't get it this time, let me know, and I will try to find some crayons to dumb it down some more until it sinks in.

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Pretty sure you don't need to farm 24/7 to get enough cash to actually play this game or to get the titles.

And no one said anything about doing it 24/7, so shove your strawman. But there's a difference between making it impossible, like you're advocating, and not doing it 24/7. And, for that matter, if they DO want to do it 24/7, it's NOT any of your damn business.

qvtkc · Jul 07, 2009, 03:05 PM // 15:05

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Originally Posted by Nereida Shoal

In perfect world (...) rangers pull

Please don't pull with your ranger if you want the tank to get aggro. Let the tank do it instead. Every tank worth something has a spare longbow that he uses for pulling.

Targren · Jul 07, 2009, 03:12 PM // 15:12

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Originally Posted by Nereida Shoal

Pls...
You either don't play the game or play with flawless people

In perfect world tanks tank, rangers pull, casters sit at the back. But we don't live in perfect GW world, well... I don't. Maybe you do

I lived in a perfect world for a beautiful hour last night, doing Gate of Madness HM with a guildie and a guy from another guild in our alliance. It was truly a thing of beauty...

No cons, no cryers, no discord (though at first there was some argument on that front, until we made the dissenter /wiki "Impossible odds"), no permas. Just good, old-fashioned randomway "Kick the Red-Engine out of them." The warrior tanked (and was perfection with his stance-breaker), the ele spiked, the ranger (moi) pulled to the tank and turreted like a fiend.

Best part was how the AI screwed us at the end. All 5 shrines capped, and our monk heroes got stupid and died to the Lich. We still beat him. Brings a tear to my eye. It was so beautiful.

Kendel · Jul 07, 2009, 03:29 PM // 15:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nereida Shoal

Pls...
You either don't play the game or play with flawless people

In perfect world tanks tank, rangers pull, casters sit at the back. But we don't live in perfect GW world, well... I don't. Maybe you do

What? Sorry but more than 1 person getting hit by a nearby/area AoE spell is fair enough, assuming its not an entire team obviously. Sometimes theres just not enough space to make sure everyone can avoid them. But if your team is getting raped by adjacent/scythe attacks you're playing with morons. Avoiding tiny AoE skills isn't even close to 'perfection', its just not being incompetant.

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Originally Posted by Targren

Wow. Reading comprehension FTL.

Yes, you really do fail at it.

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Silence? Were you even here? There was invective, loud and vile, levelled at Anet, anti-farming whingers like yourself, and their families and ancestors. All the while the ranting was going on, Bars were being adjusted to make room for Intensity and EBSoH, zealous scythes of enchanting were being assembled, and things were still moving on.

Maybe i should add /sarcasm tags next time, apparently claiming there was a minutes silence on an online RPG when SF got nerfed was just too subtle for someone like you to figure out.

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And it will take those 1% a very short time to come up with something new that works, to pass on to those "wiki-copying noobs," and farming will continue. Might have a setback of a day or two, max. No big deal there.

Only if they don't have to come up with anything new. Changing 1 or 2 skills to make things work again, do you class this as effort? More than likely the people who actually have the capacity to make builds in the first place have already considered these other skills... but obviously you seem to be missing the point (again). NOTHING will replace a Permasin!

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How is that different from "playing the rest of the game?" The same 58 missions, the same 121 explorables, the same 18 dungeons, the same 5 elite areas...

What? You can tell the difference? If i asked how to clear an area 99% of the time 600/smite could be posted and it'd work. Maybe the 2 optional slots get changed, maybe the elite is changed, maybe the Smiter has to bring Healing Signet, maybe a 3rd is needed to spam QZ. Theres no difference in the slightest. Not that you'd do them anyway, profit and speed is whats important so you go to the best place, maybe to 'shake things up' every now and then you go to a different area. Must be such fun for you, and once you've got these shinies you desire oh-so much you can quit the game because you've got nothing to do anymore.

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And no one said anything about doing it 24/7, so shove your strawman. But there's a difference between making it impossible, like you're advocating, and not doing it 24/7. And, for that matter, if they DO want to do it 24/7, it's NOT any of your damn business.

Never heard of exaggeration? Most people can figure this sort of thing out, even in text form, maybe you should go play with those crayons till you've calmed down and actual read things through enough to figure out what is actually meant.

vamp08 · Jul 07, 2009, 03:35 PM // 15:35

Originally, Yoda's talk of bringing "balance to the force" was really another way of saying "Shadowform, gtfo!"

Targren · Jul 07, 2009, 04:05 PM // 16:05

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Originally Posted by Kendel

Maybe i should add /sarcasm tags next time, apparently claiming there was a minutes silence on an online RPG when SF got nerfed was just too subtle for someone like you to figure out.

No, it wasn't subtle, it was ineffective. It came across as being metaphorical instead (no, I never believed you were saying that the farmers actually stayed silent), suggesting "mourning" when, in fact, the opposite was true. The farmers will not go gentle into that good night.

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Only if they don't have to come up with anything new. Changing 1 or 2 skills to make things work again, do you class this as effort? More than likely the people who actually have the capacity to make builds in the first place have already considered these other skills... but obviously you seem to be missing the point (again). NOTHING will replace a Permasin!

No, I get the point quite clearly. What you are missing is that, until permasin is made impossible (and I do not discount the possibility of that, even as soon as the next update, considering ANet's general lack of judgment in the whiners they choose to appease), AND nothing replaces it, I will continue to believe that the ingenuity of that cross section of the playerbase will make do.

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What? You can tell the difference? If i asked how to clear an area 99% of the time 600/smite could be posted and it'd work. Maybe the 2 optional slots get changed, maybe the elite is changed, maybe the Smiter has to bring Healing Signet, maybe a 3rd is needed to spam QZ. Theres no difference in the slightest.

When I'm not farming, I play PvE with a ranger as my main, and the one I'm working on the real titles on. I don't run discord or sabway or cryway, I build to the area, and occasionally I have to recruit assistance (physicals have issues in bundle-missions like Arborstone, though Jennur's Horde was pretty easy with patience and no time-limit). That is FUN to me (except for the recruiting help part, since EVERYONE hates those damn missions), just like farming is FUN to me. Both are part of "playing the game". Flexibility is a wonderful benefit of being a multifaceted individual (and a ranger). You might try it sometime.

I don't get to, or need to, use cute little builds like 600/smite. Those are for farming. Going with them and doing nothing while they do everything is boring, not fun, and if that's your idea of "playing the game" then your advice to do so is even more worthless than I originally thought.

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Not that you'd do them anyway, profit and speed is whats important so you go to the best place, maybe to 'shake things up' every now and then you go to a different area.

You're a bloody mind-reader now? How would you know what's important? My gods, your hubris knows no bounds, does it? I go where the fun is (which is why I generally avoid EotN like the plague) when I want to play, and where the profit is when I want to farm. After legendary guardian, why do missions again? Most of them are annoying, not fun, the first time through (I'm looking at you, every Nightfall mission requiring a sucky hero), much less repeating them after you've gotten NM and HM masters/bonus. I am personally never setting foot in Gate of Madness again for my own purposes (i.e. I'll help guildies if they need it). The dungeons in EotN are even worse. Long, tedious, boring, and with crap rewards (with the few exceptions that have tiny chances of "shinies"). Why would I repeat those? I have my UW and Urgoz statues, and both were done with my ranger (meaning no SCs) and were not fun. Why would I repeat those activities? DOA is evil, cruel, and insanely op. Would I turn down an invite into a group for that? Nope (if only they'd stop inviting me exactly when I'm bringing my girlfriend through factions *sigh*), because I haven't done it yet. Will I ever get to? Who knows. Am I going to sit in the outpost and wait? Hell no. I can better spend that time finishing my last 9 HM missions, capping skills, or farming feathers and granite. Am I going to turn down an invite to Sorrows Furnace or Urgoz? Hell yeah. BTDT.

Honestly, you're talking so much crap I'm not even sure what point you're pushing here. Is your definition of the "playing the game" that I ostensibly don't enjoy actually "redo tedious, unrewarding things?" Because if so, then yes, you're right, I don't enjoy "playing the game", and you're the one with the psychological problem (or at least a tendency towards masochism).

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Must be such fun for you, and once you've got these shinies you desire oh-so much you can quit the game because you've got nothing to do anymore.

Despite the fact that you are outright BSing again (it is really poor form to assume my desires and be so wildly, ignorantly wrong about it) Who cares if I quit the game if I've got nothing left to do? Isn't that the point of a game? To play it until you're finished playing it? Or do you think people should be like those idiots who keep looking for their car keys after they've found them? Of course I'll stop playing when I'm finished playing.

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Never heard of exaggeration? Most people can figure this sort of thing out, even in text form, maybe you should go play with those crayons till you've calmed down and actual read things through enough to figure out what is actually meant.

It's only simply exaggeration if you don't then try to argue against it to make your point, as you did. When you do that, it crosses into the realm of being a "strawman fallacy" and is the mark of very weak rhetoric.

dr love · Jul 07, 2009, 04:06 PM // 16:06

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Originally Posted by MisterT69

Here's the problem. Most of the time people don't want to wait to fill up an all 8-man party team unless it seriously involves skill like in DoA. And as for RoJ being so imba... CoP is still the flavor of the month and people are still using it more often than RoJ. Why nerf it? It has it's scatter now yet it's still quite useful if used right. Now the problem is you're trying to turn PVE into PVP. The only reason builds like RoJ and CoP and permas are still viable is because the monsters NEVER change. There will ALWAYS be margonites in city, but never stygian creatures there. It's all predictable. This is not the case in high end PVP.

In PVP you have to expect the worst and be prepared for it. You don't know what your opponents are running so your goal is to make a team build that gives you the best chance of winning the match. In PVE, all you have to do is make one good build for an area and use it over and over until it's nerfed. Why? Because the terrorwebs in UW will never change to earth magic. The Margonite anur Ki's will never change to UA monks. The Warriors in FoW will never change to cripslash. The builds are predictable and you only need one build to stop them, hence the reason good all around nuke skills like CoP and RoJ work.

As for nerfing Perma... you can't expect us to go back to the slow ass OB tanks rite? As teh great randy marsh of south park says: "Once you've had internet porn, you just can't go back to playboy."

i agree with this guy. especially the last part

and UA is a damn sexy skill. nothing better than instant rez at full hp and mp. makes a potentially disastrous situation easily recoverable.

pve and pvp are 2 very different realms. pvp builds (both team or solo) are mediocre for pve. and of course pve builds just won't work in pvp because 1/3 of the skills are usually pve only. monsters are dumb and almost always do the same thing (except when their agro is all f'ed up), so its easy to gather them up and nuke em. this is done in in all kinds of mmo's

Targren · Jul 07, 2009, 04:14 PM // 16:14

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Originally Posted by dbulger

pve and pvp are 2 very different realms.

In PvP, men fight against men.
In PvE, men fight against GODS!

(Alternate version)

In PvP, men fight against men.
In PvE, men fight against small woodland creatures until they level up.

Kendel · Jul 07, 2009, 04:27 PM // 16:27

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Originally Posted by Targren

No, it wasn't subtle, it was ineffective. It came across as being metaphorical instead (no, I never believed you were saying that the farmers actually stayed silent), suggesting "mourning" when, in fact, the opposite was true. The farmers will not go gentle into that good night.

...what?

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No, I get the point quite clearly. What you are missing is that, until permasin is made impossible (and I do not discount the possibility of that, even as soon as the next update, considering ANet's general lack of judgment in the whiners they choose to appease), AND nothing replaces it, I will continue to believe that the ingenuity of that cross section of the playerbase will make do.

...again... wtf is that suppose to mean? Until the Permasin is nerfed nothing will change, the majority of the farming is revolving around it because its so unbalanced.

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When I'm not farming, I play PvE with a ranger as my main, and the one I'm working on the real titles on. I don't run discord or sabway or cryway, I build to the area, and occasionally I have to recruit assistance (physicals have issues in bundle-missions like Arborstone, though Jennur's Horde was pretty easy with patience and no time-limit). That is FUN to me (except for the recruiting help part, since EVERYONE hates those damn missions), just like farming is FUN to me. Both are part of "playing the game". Flexibility is a wonderful benefit of being a multifaceted individual (and a ranger). You might try it sometime.

I don't get to, or need to, use cute little builds like 600/smite. Those are for farming. Going with them and doing nothing while they do everything is boring, not fun, and if that's your idea of "playing the game" then your advice to do so is even more worthless than I originally thought.

Congratulations. Since you seem to be questioning me, what exactly gives you the right to comment on what these people do or do not like and what there motives are when you clearly are not 1 of them if what you say is true. People who do nothing but farm, you do other things but farm, so clearly i was talking to you? Why exactly are you replying to things that are clearly not relevant to you as if they are?

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Despite the fact that you are outright BSing again (it is really poor form to assume my desires and be so wildly, ignorantly wrong about it) Who cares if I quit the game if I've got nothing left to do? Isn't that the point of a game? To play it until you're finished playing it? Or do you think people should be like those idiots who keep looking for their car keys after they've found them? Of course I'll stop playing when I'm finished playing.

Amazing, again you reply to something that clearly isn't relevant to you (assuming what you said above is true) as if it was. How about you try and respond to things that are actually relevant next time? Your hypocracy is getting dull, i can't speak for people who farm none stop but apparently you can?

Targren · Jul 07, 2009, 05:00 PM // 17:00

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Originally Posted by Kendel

...what?

It's a reference to a poem.

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...again... wtf is that suppose to mean? Until the Permasin is nerfed nothing will change, the majority of the farming is revolving around it because its so unbalanced.

I disagree. If it was imbalanced, it would be used for EVERYTHING, not just farming. As it is, it's maluses make it completely useless as an "oh shit" button in any normal play. Nerfing it to make it unusable for farming will only relegate it once again to the pile of "completely useless elites" next to Quick Shot, Illusionary Weaponry, and Panic. And if it IS nerfed, it will be replaced.

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Congratulations. Since you seem to be questioning me, what exactly gives you the right to comment on what these people do or do not like and what there motives are when you clearly are not 1 of them if what you say is true. People who do nothing but farm, you do other things but farm, so clearly i was talking to you? Why exactly are you replying to things that are clearly not relevant to you as if they are?

Fair enough. In the statement that leeching from 600/smites is not fun, I should have specifically stated "leeching from 600/smite is not fun for me." Other than that statement, which I mistakenly thought would be clear that I was speaking of my own opinion, I made NO comment on what other people find fun/enjoy.

As for why I am replying to them, they ARE relevant for me. In your zealous crusade to nerf these "farming-only farmers," you will affect me and my enjoyment, because Anet cannot only nerf them without nerfing me, and there is no reason being offered other than "some obnoxious GWG moralfags disapprove." So it is very relevant to me.

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Amazing, again you reply to something that clearly isn't relevant to you (assuming what you said above is true) as if it was. How about you try and respond to things that are actually relevant next time? Your hypocracy is getting dull, i can't speak for people who farm none stop but apparently you can?

See above.

Nereyda Shoaal · Jul 07, 2009, 05:15 PM // 17:15

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Originally Posted by Kendel

What? Sorry but more than 1 person getting hit by a nearby/area AoE spell is fair enough, assuming its not an entire team obviously. Sometimes theres just not enough space to make sure everyone can avoid them. But if your team is getting raped by adjacent/scythe attacks you're playing with morons. Avoiding tiny AoE skills isn't even close to 'perfection', its just not being incompetant.

Mr. your arguments are so strong I'll just go and sit in the corner. Obviously 3 years of monking and observing people's habits is not enough.
I'm taking back what I said. HB is the worst elite monk skill and everyone should stop using it. Everyone go back to WoH. Now!

Kendel · Jul 07, 2009, 05:48 PM // 17:48

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Originally Posted by Targren

I disagree. If it was imbalanced, it would be used for EVERYTHING, not just farming. As it is, it's maluses make it completely useless as an "oh shit" button in any normal play. Nerfing it to make it unusable for farming will only relegate it once again to the pile of "completely useless elites" next to Quick Shot, Illusionary Weaponry, and Panic. And if it IS nerfed, it will be replaced.

Wow... you honestly believe that doesn't mean its imbalanced? Its only used for farming, therefore its not overpowered? Shadow Form should be obliterated from the face of PvE. When it was used in conjunction with Sliver Armour to give you a small window of opportunity to farm bosses was 1 thing and alot of changes wouldn't effect that, but being able to tank an infinite amount of foes in almost any area of the game on your own is just ridiculous.

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Fair enough. In the statement that leeching from 600/smites is not fun, I should have specifically stated "leeching from 600/smite is not fun for me." Other than that statement, which I mistakenly thought would be clear that I was speaking of my own opinion, I made NO comment on what other people find fun/enjoy.

No-one can find it fun because you don't actually do anything... wtf do you think people Smite for? Because they find it fun sitting half a radar away doing nothing? No, they do it because either they fail at 600 and have no choice or don't want to put any effort in to get loot (usually both). Theres always an abundance of Smiters for DTSC because most people seemingly don't want to put any effort into things.

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As for why I am replying to them, they ARE relevant for me. In your zealous crusade to nerf these "farming-only farmers," you will affect me and my enjoyment, because Anet cannot only nerf them without nerfing me, and there is no reason being offered other than "some obnoxious GWG moralfags disapprove." So it is very relevant to me.

How does playing your Ranger require you to farm excessively? Sure you might need to farm occasionally to get some extra cash, but someone already pointed out (here or another thread i can't remember) that if you really want to make some quick money, turn up to a Z-quest and run it or farm the items themselves during a weekend event. Farming using small teams is not the issue. Farming an entire zone in 1/10th of the time is. Speed Clears will always be faster, they just shouldn't completely outclass every other viable build by a mile.

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Originally Posted by Nereida Shoal

Mr. your arguments are so strong I'll just go and sit in the corner. Obviously 3 years of monking and observing people's habits is not enough.
I'm taking back what I said. HB is the worst elite monk skill and everyone should stop using it. Everyone go back to WoH. Now!

Only if you spent those 3 years playing with H/H (in which case, why weren't you Smiting), otherwise you've been playing with morons. There is no excuse for more than 1 person getting hit by a Scythe attack, its range is tiny and you can see the foe coming a mile away and spread out. If faced with a Terrorweb Dryder you make an effort to NOT stand 2 inches from an ally. This isn't rocket science. If you think Heal Party will save you when 2 Spark of the Titans land a Rodgorts Invocation you're delusional, and if your allies also seem to think that too its about time they learnt the truth or keep dieing.

Targren · Jul 07, 2009, 06:35 PM // 18:35

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Originally Posted by Kendel

Wow... you honestly believe that doesn't mean its imbalanced? Its only used for farming, therefore its not overpowered? Shadow Form should be obliterated from the face of PvE. When it was used in conjunction with Sliver Armour to give you a small window of opportunity to farm bosses was 1 thing and alot of changes wouldn't effect that, but being able to tank an infinite amount of foes in almost any area of the game on your own is just ridiculous.

Actually, the changes DID effect that.Without perma, between the duration nerf and the damage nerf, that pretty much be limited to certain (weak) NM bosses now before the enchant wore out leaving you ready to be one-shotted (and that malus has always been there).

As for tanking an infinite amount of foes in almost any area on your own, that's bollocks. Do it in the Jade sea. Oh, wait, you can't. Do it anywhere where the baddies use signets or touch skills (there are a lot of them, they just generally go unnoticed). You can't. Do it in Sanctum Cay. You can't. Hell, you can't even do it in old ascalon, the most noobish area of the game.

And even if you could, what good is standing there tanking if you can't kill them on your own? Plenty of places where that's the case too, so you need a team. Yep, farmers occasionally team up.

If the skill let permas do EVERYTHING, like you claim, with no effort or skill whatsoever, then you might have a point. But it doesn't. It doesn't come close. Even the widely-hated UWSC requires more skill and teamwork than most of the haters are likely to EVER be capable of.

It doesn't make every mission soloable (The ones it does can probably be counted on 1 hand, with at least enough fingers left over to deliver an appropriate message to Anet when they do nerf it. Tihark Orchard doesn't count).

No, people are butthurt because of UWSC and crying about the non-existent economy when they really mean they're afraid of their ecto supplies dropping in value (which is funny as hell, since half the UWSC team has a near-zero chance of seeing even one).

FoW? Please. My guild regularly clears it with a team of 8 paragons, just for giggles. SF isn't doing any damage there. Deep? Nope. Urgoz? Nope. DoA? Never seen a team without one, admittedly, but as I understand it, it's pretty much required and not a speed clear thing.

So no, I don't buy you're logic that it's imbalanced because you choose to ignore its many shortcomings.

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No-one can find it fun because you don't actually do anything...

There you go again. Do you really think you're so worldly and wise as to say that with certainty? Why do people enjoy being cheerleaders? They're not even playing the game. Yet, they do.

There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy, Horatio.

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wtf do you think people Smite for? Because they find it fun sitting half a radar away doing nothing? No, they do it because either they fail at 600 and have no choice or don't want to put any effort in to get loot (usually both).

And from the part the almighty one extrapolates the whole. SOME people might smite for that reason. I often smite for DTSC because my guild run has all its 600s and needs one. I often 600 for it when they're set for smiters. Might also smite when my connection is particularly laggy, I'm tired, or I just don't feel up to it but want to participate in the guild activity and chat while doing so.

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Theres always an abundance of Smiters for DTSC because most people seemingly don't want to put any effort into things.

Keyword: "Seemingly." Things are not always what they seem. Your snap judgments should take this into account.

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How does playing your Ranger require you to farm excessively? Sure you might need to farm occasionally to get some extra cash,

Playing Ranger + going for Legendary skill hunter: Just shy of 300k just for capsigs

Playing Ranger + Monk + Assassin + Mesmer + Necro + Warrior + Paragon + Dervish + Ritualist + Elementalist : quite expensive.

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but someone already pointed out (here or another thread i can't remember) that if you really want to make some quick money, turn up to a Z-quest and run it or farm the items themselves during a weekend event.

And as was pointed out elsewhere: Z-quest rewards suck as far as money goes, and to earn said rewards, you have to play the same boring-ass missions already beaten. If you're lucky, the reward will be enough to buy one new skill. Again, you are advocating people stop doing something you disapprove of to do it a way YOU would enjoy, whether or not they would. Unless it's one of the few missions I have left for LG, or an easy-ass one like Tihark Orchard, I don't bother with the Zquests. It's just not worth it.

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Farming using small teams is not the issue. Farming an entire zone in 1/10th of the time is. Speed Clears will always be faster, they just shouldn't completely outclass every other viable build by a mile.

Shadow form is not the issue here. The area is. And you can't expect it not to be, considering the area is OLD, there are new skills and classes to work with, AND people have been getting a LOT of practice. It's not just the build that outclasses every other build, it's the teams themselves. Just because it takes the average randomway group an hour and a half does NOT mean that is the baseline to use for comparison. That same team, attempting a UWSC, will probably fail inside 15m, because those buggers are HARD, they require teamwork and coordination, and few bother to cultivate that anymore.

So when you get your way and Anet stupidly nerfs shadow form again to kill UWSC, rather than nerfing the area itself(because that's apparently how they roll), those same teams that practiced it and got it down will STILL do it faster than ARG.

Tyla · Jul 07, 2009, 07:23 PM // 19:23

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Originally Posted by Targren

Shadow form is not the issue here. The area is. And you can't expect it not to be, considering the area is OLD, there are new skills and classes to work with, AND people have been getting a LOT of practice. It's not just the build that outclasses every other build, it's the teams themselves. Just because it takes the average randomway group an hour and a half does NOT mean that is the baseline to use for comparison. That same team, attempting a UWSC, will probably fail inside 15m, because those buggers are HARD, they require teamwork and coordination, and few bother to cultivate that anymore.

Take a step back. There are new skills and classes to work with, but it's the area that's the issue and not the skill Shadow Form? Shadow Form isn't the only cause, but it is part of the cause and the heavy defense of it allows so much versatility in areas (most of the game, no doubt).

Yes, practice makes people better... but no amount of practice in running would make you run the speed of light, for example. Yes, it's a massive exaggeration, but it's the same concept. You wouldn't even be able to touch the speeds we get today if it wasn't for new skills coming in.

Calling it hard is pretty dumb too. Difficulty is completely subjective. I've had people tell me that powerchords on a guitar are incredibly easy, and single string picking is a lot harder (I'm a beginner at the moment anyway), but I've had exactly the opposite with that, I can barely even keep the same finger structure when moving up and down the neck to change chords, but I can play single string quite well compared to powerchords. And when you practice, it eventually gets easier. You can hardly call something hard after a couple months of practice, depending what it is. I recall hearing that some areas in the game were awfully hard with H/H, with whatever buffs, but I found them to be easy without the buffs. (Discounting PvE skills obviously, I probably had some of that stuff on my bar)

Targren · Jul 07, 2009, 07:37 PM // 19:37

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Originally Posted by Tyla

Take a step back. There are new skills and classes to work with, but it's the area that's the issue and not the skill Shadow Form? Shadow Form isn't the only cause, but it is part of the cause and the heavy defense of it allows so much versatility in areas (most of the game, no doubt).

I spoke to this in an earlier post. Things like this are seriously overstating the power of the skill.

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Yes, practice makes people better... but no amount of practice in running would make you run the speed of light, for example.

Yes, it's a massive exaggeration, but it's the same concept.
You wouldn't even be able to touch the speeds we get today if it wasn't for new skills coming in.

Most of the complaining about speeds is a massive exaggeration, too. Claiming UWSC takes 1/10 the time of a normal clear is BS. Before it came out, there were noted instances where a good team would clear it in 45 minutes. So that gives you maybe 1/2 the time, at best, assuming a perfect run and perfect spawns.

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Calling it hard is pretty dumb too. Difficulty is completely subjective. I've had people tell me that powerchords on a guitar are incredibly easy, and single string picking is a lot harder (I'm a beginner at the moment anyway), but I've had exactly the opposite with that, I can barely even keep the same finger structure when moving up and down the neck to change chords, but I can play single string quite well compared to powerchords. And when you practice, it eventually gets easier. You can hardly call something hard after a couple months of practice, depending what it is.

Wait, what? You say calling it hard because it needs a lot of practice is dumb, then go on to give a counterexample of something that's... hard
and needs a lot of practice? Or are you saying calling it hard is dumb because it becomes less hard with practice? Or.. what? I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming there's a way of parsing this that isn't completely vacuous.

Tyla · Jul 07, 2009, 07:54 PM // 19:54

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Originally Posted by Targren

I spoke to this in an earlier post. Things like this are seriously overstating the power of the skill.

The only things that can touch you are untargetted AoE skills, touch skills, enviromental effects, regular skills, a couple of tidbit skills (think Illusionary Weaponry) and signets. And it's maintainable aswell as not having an effect on mobility. Overstating? Are you kidding me?

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Most of the complaining about speeds is a massive exaggeration, too. Claiming UWSC takes 1/10 the time of a normal clear is BS. Before it came out, there were noted instances where a good team would clear it in 45 minutes. So that gives you maybe 1/2 the time, at best, assuming a perfect run and perfect spawns.

Perfect run and perfect spawns. Now, imagine that with the current build. The 1/10th time has absolutely nothing to do with me.

But the times that people are getting are absurd. 45 minutes back then, with a really skilled team? Compared to now? Sometimes more than half is a hell of a lot of difference.

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Wait, what? You say calling it hard because it needs a lot of practice is dumb, then go on to give a counterexample of something that's... hard
and needs a lot of practice? Or are you saying calling it hard is dumb because it becomes less hard with practice? Or.. what? I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming there's a way of parsing this that isn't completely vacuous.

Difficulty is subjective, some people may have a natural talent for it.
Skill levels will always alter the difficulty of something in that person's eyes.
Practice will increase skill levels, but at times, some things are just unsurpassable.